tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3226298509613481208.post4832329891701345295..comments2023-08-18T02:10:12.564-07:00Comments on Saturday Night Sandbox: Some Comments and Cogitations on ClericsBigFellahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03052419088140204154noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3226298509613481208.post-1384224536535008772019-02-24T06:59:40.615-08:002019-02-24T06:59:40.615-08:00Is it just my interpretation or are we all overloo...Is it just my interpretation or are we all overlooking Elrond's seemingly magical healing of Frodo in LotR? It isn't complete negation of the effects, but it is enough "healing" to allow Frodo to continue his questing.<br />Perhaps I am stubborn, but I see the cleric class as filling a niche roll in the game, especially ODD. Midway between MU and FM with some similarities to both, but also with distinct abilities that add to the milieu, the cleric contributes in several ways. I suggest we not focus on the name or source of inspiration for the class, rather on its function during the game. <br />Divorcing the "cleric" class from its religious implications, we have a caster who wears armor, has decent hit points and offense abilities. One with power over the undead. No religion required.<br />Thinking of hit points broadly, their loss doesn't just represent wounds, but also fatigue, luck, morale, tricks and mojo. Therefore magical healing can restore morale, mojo and health. <br />I personally don't require the cleric to worship a deity. As I see it it is up to the player to explain where they think their PC's power comes from. I offer a number of possibilities if they seem puzzled, enough to get them thinking.<br />Reframing our assumptions may allow an appreciation of how this unique class can fit within our game without seeming to constitute an anachronism. A Paladin In Hellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06810111335291693554noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3226298509613481208.post-1142322753036567472019-01-28T08:41:22.064-08:002019-01-28T08:41:22.064-08:00In theory I agree with you, but I don't think ...In theory I agree with you, but I don't think that's what a lot of players think when they think of Hit Points, if they think of them at all. They think palpable physical damage to their character's palpable physical body. I'm not saying that's the correct interpretation, it just kinda points up the fraught relationship between abstraction and visualization. If a player is of the mindset that no amount of spiritual encouragement is gonna negate a dagger thru the guts, then they're not going to buy in to the idea that a cleric's healing magic is effective in that way. It's easier to just say "it's magic" without delving to deep into what the abstraction represents. BigFellahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03052419088140204154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3226298509613481208.post-53660723006029107652019-01-28T04:00:40.492-08:002019-01-28T04:00:40.492-08:00I have done a lot of stuff on clerics over the yea...I have done a lot of stuff on clerics over the years, and I think there are some good answers for each of your concerns:<br /><br />1. James already mentioned the saints, but also remember that D&D has wargaming as a source material. Healing mechanics and the cleric class as a whole can be traced back to these wargaming roots.<br /><br />2. Miracles-as-revelation work in D&D if you have a strong Trinitarian metaphor for the Christianity-analogue in your fantasy world. The only folks who get to do all of the cool stuff that clerics do are those who follow the Trinitarian God. Everybody else has to settle for being a magic-user (which can be demonstrated to be man-made — think about the difference between Moses and the Egyptian Priests who manage to weakly imitate the miracles of God before God lowers the hammer). Thus, the revelation bit comes with the exclusivity of clerics and their God, who is trying to demonstrate who He is through the cleric class and all that they do.<br /><br />3. A neat trick for making higher HD undead scarier is to pair them with lower HD undead. Turning always goes lower HD to higher HD. Thus, skeletons and zombies are fodder that clerics have to burn through before they get to ghouls, ghasts, wraiths, etc. leaving those harder HD undead plenty of time to do their scary damage. BTW Solomon Kane is a literary example of a cleric-type turning undead.<br /><br />4. There are several spells from the Cleric Spell list that end up on the Magic-user spell list. They are often higher level on the M-U list and indicate to me that either the arcane aping of the divine is harder or that God has made such things easier for those who believe. There are also world-building ways to make arcane spell casting more dangerous (it can be as simple as making it illegal in civilized lands or having a robust Guild system that tightly regulates the use of arcane magic).FrDavehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00459281821319914530noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3226298509613481208.post-23767008599463332352019-01-28T03:56:16.434-08:002019-01-28T03:56:16.434-08:00Hit Points make the most sense to me as a measure ...Hit Points make the most sense to me as a measure of morale and alertness; you don't actually take a serious wound until you're at or near zero. With that understanding, it actually makes a lot of sense to me that Clerics can restore your sense of purpose and ability to ignore the distractions of minor pains and worries that'll get you killed in battle. You do kind of have to ignore the spell names (cure serious wounds etc), and restrictions that later editions put on it like needing to touch the target .Joshua Macyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10838733328132877699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3226298509613481208.post-67906550712112294542019-01-27T20:37:10.658-08:002019-01-27T20:37:10.658-08:00Excellent points, although I'll admit I'm ...Excellent points, although I'll admit I'm not as well versed in Saint lore, being blandly Presbyterian by upbringing. (My impression of Saints from what I've seen is that they can be viewed as proto-superheroes from European folk traditions.) <br /><br />So that is a folkloric point in favor of clerics as a class. BigFellahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03052419088140204154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3226298509613481208.post-26209826833891948732019-01-27T20:13:03.171-08:002019-01-27T20:13:03.171-08:00Regarding healing and cleric spells, go to the old...Regarding healing and cleric spells, go to the old stories about the early saints, especially early European saints. Back then they were performing healings, exorcisms, miracles of various sorts, auguries using the Bible, and even raising the dead! There was even a case of a "lower order saint" who got too big for his britches and controlled the weather, to be harrangued by his bishop. There was even quid pro, ala D&D, and voergy who went out in armor and kicked ass with maces (also frowned upon by most bishops). Plus, forget not that Pharaoh's priests could also perform miracles, but Moses did better miracles...James Mishlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03510782553325944558noreply@blogger.com